Speaker 1: 0:20

It's Mark and I wanted to talk today about how not to job search like the wrong way. There is a wrong way and you need to understand this. And I'm going to say this from personal experience, because I'm in the job search mode, meaning that I'm trying to hire, and I wanted to give you my personal experience of that and what not to do. So here's at it. I just felt really compelled to share this after a meeting I was having today with a friend of mine. The fellow's name is Nick Korkodilius. He's a guy he's called Ask the Headhunter. He's got his own brand new website and he's been around for many, many years, and we got into a topic we were just talking about job hiring and explaining my issues with it, and it just started to make me think I'm like yeah, I'm an employment lawyer and I really haven't talked about this issue ever in terms of, like, job hire, but the current environment is absolutely insane in terms of what people have to go through. So I'm just going to share my experience of what I'm seeing, and I'll start with this. It starts with the premise of, you know, federal employees losing jobs left and right. A bunch of lawyers who are just you know, have a job or had one out there, like as of two days ago, for an employment attorney, and I was getting hits for people who were didn't have any employment experience at all. So that's the first red flag Don't apply to jobs that the job doesn't fit your qualifications. I mean, I was looking for an employment attorney and people were sending me applications, I'm like, but then I clearly rejected them because they didn't fit the requirement. So first thing to don't do do not do this. Don't just randomly throw your application, your resume, to the wind and see if it's going to stick, because that process doesn't work. So look at the ad and I'll tell you this. This happened to me twice so far. I posted this job in two different time periods, like over several months. The first time I posted it, I was getting the same type of reaction and I edited the ad and I said in bold letters don't apply to this ad if you do not have implement law experience. And guess what, people still apply to the ad. So I don't think people are reading the ads and that was the one takeaway from my conversation with Nick today that people are not reading the ads. Or maybe they're hiring AI devices to screen filter, whatever. That process is not working for you. You're not going to get hired. Okay, stop. The next thing is just merely the quantity of people throwing their things to the wind. That process doesn't work either. Okay, you're just, you know, sending a prayer to the wind and hopefully someone reads it.

Speaker 1: 3:17

I'm a human being. I'm reading all the applications. There's no AI bot between the resume coming in. In this case, I was using LinkedIn. I was trying to use Indeed, but that's a fail. As an employer searching for Indeed, that tool did not work for me. So LinkedIn is a little bit better in terms of the. You know there's a system there, but I'm a human being looking at every single resume that's coming in. It's hitting my feed and my email. As soon as something comes in, I'm looking at it and I can immediately screen it and I can select, reject.

Speaker 1: 3:57

So, as a human being reading it, I'm still seeing people without the right qualifications, and my job ad was very specific. I went to the great lengths to explain what the job requirements were, et cetera. Years of experience I wanted, if you're admitted to various jurisdictions like New York, connecticut, and people still were applying for it, and maybe because it had the word remote in it because my attorneys in my office do work remotely and also work in the office, but primarily remote Remote works. By the way, folks, it's actually highly productive for us. Technology is king, so it works. But I was screening these myself and no AI bot was doing it and I was just troubled with, you know, the lack of insight or the inability for the candidates to. You know, look me up what we do and you know what I was asking for and I was just shocked that that's the level of engagement that you know people are not engaging, they're not investigating.

Speaker 1: 5:08

So, red flag, don't do that. Don't throw the application to the job ad you see in LinkedIn. Do something different. What should you do, mark? Well, do this. If you see a job ad, find out about the firm. Figure out first is that the firm you want to work at? Don't get, I don't know. Maybe people get in the money eyes and they see the salary range issue and they just want to throw it at it, or they're getting desperate because they're getting canned by the administration in Washington. They're just getting fearful and need a job. That's a red flag too. But like somebody from DC looking for a job in Connecticut. You only do that because you lost a job and you wouldn't have otherwise approached my office in a normal state of circumstances because you want to become an employment lawyer. It's like red flag. It's just. People cannot see that. So the right thing to do is you see a job ad. Some company's hiring Cary Associates is hiring my law firm. Why don't you find spend the time to research about that firm? If you're an attorney, you have access to court system and dockets. You can actually spend a lot of time to understand that employer. Why do you do that? Well, because I want you to do that. I want you to figure out if you're a right fit for me and I'm a right fit for you. But so many people don't do that.

Speaker 1: 6:32

This came up during a conversation with my friend Nick today. Not one person who applied. There was like 80 resumes that came in over a short period of time and not one of them took the gumption to call me or send me an email unsolicited. So I sent emails. I was doing that very proactively with them, but no one solicited me directly. You should be doing that because they saw a job ad and they were saying things about the firm and what they saw in the firm, what the firm was doing, and they actually took a look at it. I'd pay attention to that attorney, that applicant, because that showed that they had interest.

Speaker 1: 7:19

So stop this script that you think you should follow, that you can't contact the owners or the managers of the employer. Contact them. I mean, that was actually Nick's advice as well and I agree, and years ago when I told Nick this story, that when I started out and I just had no experience this is now 28 years ago I say a lot, I'm a lot. Sorry, I apologize because I'm trying to think through the thoughts, but I actually contacted a lot of known attorneys, had more years of experience before when I just started, and they were receptive and I wasn't asking for a job, I was just simply asking hey, what is it like to be an employment lawyer? How did you go about it? What are you doing? And I knew who I was talking to because I can look them up.

Speaker 1: 8:03

Back then you had some semblance of internet yeah, very basic internet and I even asked, you know, to come and talk to my friend, bob Mitchell, who's an attorney in Connecticut. He doesn't remember this meeting, but I do because I sat in his office and I asked him because I was young, you're impressionable, you remember this, and I learned a lot from him and through conversations with similar folks who are attorneys, who are already practicing many years in advance. And I encourage you to do that. Don't ask for well, don't tell them you want a job, but you just say you want to network and do the old fashioned way. That's the way it works these days. It's through networking. I heard stats that most people are getting jobs not through LinkedIn, but they're getting jobs through, you know, word of mouth or networking and that's and my friend, nick shared this input with me because he was a recruiter and he's writing in that field. I was like shocked. I thought the other way around, it was happening that people were going through these massive data banks like LinkedIn, but that's not the case.

Speaker 1: 9:47

The other thing we talked about was this. It's called algorithmic bias and there was a case with Derek Mobley versus I think it's Workspace or something, and, excuse me, he applied for like 100 jobs and was randomly denied because of discrimination. He eventually sued them. It was a court case. I think I did a podcast about it. So the AI bot is obviously screening from both angles from the employee side and from the employer side. So there's no human there side and from the employer side. So there's no human there and that's a problem because there's implicit bias within that algorithm, I guess, and you don't have to go through that process. You can bypass, you don't have to accept that's the way you have to do it. There's another way Do your own individual research about an employer.

Speaker 1: 10:44

Nick was sharing examples where people basically targeted three different companies they really wanted to work for and they just went out and talked to and contacted the people at these companies and guess what? People were really happy to hear what they had to say and gave them some airtime. It takes some persistence, but do your homework about who you're targeting. Find out what it is they actually do. Don't just throw a resume at the situation and don't send a cover letter, please. It's really drives me insane. Don't send a cover letter. That is, it tacitly touches upon what we do and doesn't really answer the question about you know, are you qualified for the job? That's in the application. So people do that a lot and I think it's maybe out of fear or whatever it is, if you want a job at a certain location and you really know what you want. Target the employer and go after it. Don't be shy.

Speaker 1: 11:45

I would appreciate someone who had the gumption and the guts to reach out in a very articulated way to have a discussion about my firm, what I do, how I serve as clients, our business, whatever it is, and then not about you, and have just have a regular discussion instead of this. You know, I guess this script of you know, applicant and employer that people follow it doesn't work, and talking with Nick today, actually it made me remember that you know that is not the way things are done. You have to really set yourself apart. I know you hear that a lot. Set yourself apart, I know you hear that a lot, but I didn't have that experience and I had to basically hire myself. That's not the common way of doing things, but I will tell you, as an employment lawyer, I've learned over the years that if people and I've hired many people, many people the more genuine you are, the more transparent you are about what your goal, aspiration is. Try to figure out and maybe I'll do it this way that I'm looking for.

Speaker 1: 12:56

When I'm looking for a candidate, I'm looking for a fit. You know, yeah, you got to have a law degree, yeah, you got to have employment law experience, but you could be the worst candidate possible with a bad attitude. I'm not going to hire you. I'm looking for, and you need to figure out through questioning and have discussion, like with people, what is the fit that this employer wants of the particular person. It's a personality. It's possibly you have to learn and ask questions and probe the employer.

Speaker 1: 13:22

You know, is it remote work? Is it working in a silo? Do you guys get together? What's the culture? Like you know, in my shared experience in interviews, I talk about what is my culture. A lot, I actually go to the nth degree to talk about it. We have you've heard me talk about it we have employment contracts for termination, for cause? We have, you know, lengthy vacation times, because I want people to take vacations away and so they don't burn out. We pay for the gym membership and we, you know, use technology as most I'm sure most companies do. But we use technology to bridge the gap between space and time, to allow this person to work anywhere they want. I mean, I work remotely from a lot of different places, effortlessly, and I'm connected to my systems. So learn about what the employer is like. Spend the time it could nail you a job.

Speaker 1: 14:16

I'll give you a trick that Nick shared with me today. Thanks, nick. He said he had done this in his own career, whereby he asked to meet with people and he said can you recommend whomever else I can talk to, et cetera. And he did, and he went off and he didn't get any of those jobs. And then the person he asked the original person says why did you ever ask us for a job? And he then said, after he was hired by that employer, he says well, that was a trick all along. I intentionally did that so, and it took him a year to do that. So you know, try different tactics to get your foot in the door, but have a discussion.

Speaker 1: 14:56

But anything you've learned from this episode is do not throw your resume into the pipeline of nonsense that you see, and you can start there, but don't end there. Pick the phone up, diligent. How about being persistent in a respectful way? Contact me, find out what I'm doing, find out what court cases I'm working on, that I'm trying to move and shake with Anything to get a conversation going, because it's all public, it's out there. I mean my situation is very easy. You can read about what I'm working on, that I'm trying to move and shake with anything to get a conversation going, because it's all public, it's out there. I mean my situation is very easy. You can read about what I'm doing and to have it, you know, invite me to have a conversation, but you got to have the qualifications first.

Speaker 1: 15:36

Read the darn job ad and don't just, you know, throw your thing into the to the job hopper on an ad post and think it's going to stick. It's not. That's the wrong way to do it. I was a human being, rejecting things out of hand as soon as they came in because they did not have the basic requirements of the job. Read the job. Don't rely upon some AI bot to do it for you. Spend the time. This is involving your income. I'm shocked that people are actually doing this Like they would literally risk the opportunity loss.

Speaker 1: 16:09

But a computer to screen them away from a potential job, because these computers get it wrong all the time. And if you're doing that, that's a huge mistake. But I think what our culture today is is geared towards that and people don't know any better because people don't tell them. So that was my messaging today. It was like let people know that's the wrong way to job search. Don't use the throw it to the wind or an AI bot or anything to mechanically drive your job search.

Speaker 1: 16:41

Do it the old fashioned way. Where I'm a human being, I want to be contacted, I want to know Thank you. Demonstrate that you have the skill set. Demonstrate you have the drive and the ability to service the clients in the way that the employer is doing that. But do not go about the job search through your computer like that and just expect any results. I mean you could end up like Derek Mobley, who did exactly that and he got rejected. That was the lawsuit. He was being discriminated against because he was an African-American male, and so it's a great example. I'm sorry that happened to him, but these devices, this technology, it's fallible and you need to be aware that there's a different way of doing this, and that way of doing it is the old-fashioned way putting your name to a communication of some form. Be diligent about it, persistence with it. It demonstrates that you want to join the employer because you're trying everything you can. You're trying everything you can. So if that helps you in your job search and gets you out of your wrong thinking red flags all day long, thinking about using AI or throwing resumes out there because you're scared shitless to. You need a job because the federal government just fired you, whatever. Just get out of that mindset. Change your mindset.

Speaker 1: 18:17

Go back to if I was an employer. How would I want somebody to contact me about a job search, even a networking that they were interested in? And do those things with that person in terms of your job search. Get the attention of people. We're all busy. Yes, we get tons of email. We're doing you know a thousand things every single day and we're exhausted at the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 18:42

But if you just take the time to communicate like a human being, as a professional here, in the case of an attorney, you're going to get reception to it because people listen to that. I mean I'm going to listen to somebody who's going to say in a very articulated way that they're interested in what I'm doing. I want to know that you're interested in what the mission statement is. So I'm repeating myself, but for a reason it's just incredibly disturbing to have to reject so many candidates because they commit the same mistake each time they did it. I mean we're talking I don't know 80 times. I mean they're all doing the same thing, they're all committing the same mistake. Not one of them reached out to me. And then I can just add this, because I'm fresh off an interview. I'm just going to share this with you.

Speaker 1: 19:33

I don't do interviews like you think that I do them, and I'm not going to ask you silly, stupid questions about you. Know what color is your parachute or whatever the nonsense that goes on in the real world. The right way to do an interview is, in my opinion, if I'm hiring because I want to pay somebody $200,000 a year, is I want to have a conversation, I'm going to find out about you and I'm going to do it over a longer period of time. It's going to bug you, but that's intentional. I'm trying to have a slow hire because I'm going to get to know you, all your quirks and all your things, and you're going to get to know me and you're going to figure out whether it's a fit for you, whether it fits for me. That's intentional and that's the way I do interviews. Now, is it perfect? Well, it's definitely less stressful for both sides. I'm going to check out how many cases you're on the federal court docket and how many times you've done it or this, that, and try to figure out the baseline and what I need to grow in terms of your work experience. I can do all that.

Speaker 1: 20:32

On my side, I try to have a conversation with people so that they're not so, they're at ease and we're talking in a conversational manner. It's designed to bring out like how you are as a person. You know what makes you tick, personal experiences you have. But it's very fluid. It's not based upon stupid questions that you may get wrong or any screening device that you've got to. I can't believe people have to do this I think my kids had to do this where you get interviewed by a darn computer and there's a company out there selling this service for millions and millions of dollars to corporations nationwide and I forget the name of the software company. But that's insane. Like you can't even have a communication about something so vitally important to your job and you got to do it with a computer first. That's crazy making.

Speaker 1: 21:25

I do it old-fashioned way. I get the person on a Zoom call, have a discussion. I don't put a time limit on the call and we just start to brainstorm conversations about various issues. Obviously, I'm working with a resume, but I'm also communicating what's happening in a very conversational style, without pressure, because I don't want you to be stressed in my job interview with me, because I want to have you feel more relaxed. That's the way to go about the job interview.

Speaker 1: 21:56

Some people may object, you know, but you're not going to learn something from somebody who's under stress. That never works and I don't want to. You know, put you through the paces of that and I want to have a more robust, colorful conversation filled with humor, filled with just natural reactions, instead of you know you working from a stress, you know sense of your presence there and you're under. You know you need a job or something like that or whatever that happens in a job interview. So the job interview I do is designed to bring out the person you really are, not the person that's sitting there in front of on paper. That's kind of stale, black and white, you know print. It's like there's a real person there and I'm trying to bring that out through conversation and people are really receptive to that and I'll take my time because I want to make sure that you're working with me for a long time.

Speaker 1: 22:49

By the way, employment lawyers and most lawyers are most employers cannot promise you lifetime employment. They can't say you're gonna be working here a long time. Well, it's illegal to do that because in the sense that somebody will sue you for breach of contract if you ever hear that. So just a little tidbit. But I'm looking for a longer trust building situation from the get-go and that conversation is designed to do that. My whole process is designed to do that. I think most employers don't do that because of the evidence of how much they're using AI. I mean, where's the trust in that process? I mean shit, there's no trust in that process.

Speaker 1: 23:26

So there's a way to deal with this, folks, and it's not through a computer. Start with the computer to get your data and your input, but write letters. You'd be surprised at how creative you can get to get somebody's attention. We're all busy, I get it, but if you think hard enough, you can send a FedEx to somebody and they'll open it potentially. Or just show up at their office or something to get their attention that you're seriously interested in a job at the employment place of work. So I just wanted to call that out. That was on my mind. Today I had a conversation about this. I wanted to share it.

Speaker 1: 24:08

I don't normally talk about job interview stuff or recruiting stuff. Maybe I think I should in terms of because I do see a lot of this material or this in the work that I do. We don't generally have, you know, cases where people sue people for, you know, failure to hire. It's kind of a hard case to prove and I have been thinking about this aspect of you know the other side of you know, the category of employment is really, you know, job search and career coaching. I mean, I am kind of doing that through the podcasts and the episodes we're doing. I'll lean in a little bit more for you from what I see.

Speaker 1: 24:52

I'm not perfect. I think there's a variety of ways, you know, to career coach and there's, I'm sure, a lot of coaches out there quote unquote coaches. But I just basically give you what I see in terms of the cases we're litigating, the cases we're dealing with employers and they do have a kind of a systematic pattern to them and you can kind of know it and you see it and you hear this pattern through my discussions with you. Likewise, I'm giving you a little pattern today because I'm job searching or at least trying to fill a position, and a little feedback for you. And also I listened to a lot of what other people say in terms of my friend. Nick's a recruiter for a long time. He's asked that headhunter. He's a famous guy, so I enjoy speaking with him and I learn a lot. So I'm just giving a little feedback back to you.

Speaker 1: 25:45

Red flags don't do certain things. Do do certain things about getting to know your employer on a personal level. We appreciate if you can reach out to us and take the extra effort. I mean, I'm not kidding. It would send a loud message that you're interested in that job. So I'll leave it at that. Hope you enjoyed this episode and my thoughts about this. This really did bug the shit out of me and I wanted to share it with you. Sorry for the language today, but it does really bug me because people just do not listen or read what they're applying for. So please stop doing that and do it the way I suggested. Okay, thanks, have a great week.