Speaker 1: 0:19

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Real Food Stories podcast. Last week, I posted a podcast about workplace inclusion and menopause and how it is time to start talking about menopause in the workplace. Because here's the deal About half of the workforce is women and about 47 million women will enter menopause each year. That is one in every five women in the workforce. Now, out of the 20%, 20% of them will have symptoms severe enough to interfere with work and life. This not only affects women on a personal level, but it also becomes a workplace issue. The bottom line is that $1.8 billion that is, billion with a B is lost every year to work-related absences. So retaining workers and making them feel supported has a huge cost advantage, not to mention the fact that there is a huge lack of education around menopause itself. Most women I talk to do not know much about menopause. They feel they have to tough it out, and there is not a lot of awareness around nutrition and food options and how to proceed going forward in this new phase of our lives. That is my mission to educate and guide as many women as I can about all the ins and outs of menopause. But today I wanted to dig a little deeper on menopause being a workplace issue, because most of the women I know are getting up every morning and commuting to their jobs and work is still the biggest part of their day.

Speaker 1: 1:58

So I'm bringing in an expert who also happens to be my husband, mark Carey. Hi Mark, hi. Mark has been an employment attorney in his own practice for the past 28 years on the plaintiff side that is, you and me and he has seen his fair share of discrimination on everything from ageism to gender issues. Fair share of discrimination on everything from ageism to gender issues. Mark also has his own very popular podcast, the Employee Survival Guide. Welcome back, mark.

Speaker 1: 2:32

I know you have been on here before in a few different capacities. We did an episode a while back on stress in the workplace and recently you came on just as husband to talk about educating men on menopause, which I greatly appreciated and was a very popular podcast. But today I wanted to get your perspective on the legal aspects of menopause and then talk about what employers can do to help their female employees who are experiencing this menopause transition. So, like I said before, I think this conversation deserves a seat at this podcast table because menopause in our health is such a personal issue, but it is also a workplace issue and I'm not sure if women feel empowered enough to speak up at work, if women feel empowered enough to speak up at work.

Speaker 1: 3:28

So why don't we just jump in and start talking about some of the legal stuff and then what workplaces can do to help women going through the menopause transition feel supported? So I'm going to just jump in with the first question what legal protections, if any, exist for women right now who are experiencing menopause-related challenges at work? Are there anything that like protects women in the workplace right now?

Speaker 2: 3:54

Thanks, heather, I'm glad to be back and yes, there are protections for women.

Speaker 2: 4:00

First issue there are state and federal laws and also city laws.

Speaker 2: 4:04

If you live in New York City, you should all remember that there's a New York City code law as well, which I'll talk about in a little bit, but there is the Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which protects against sex and gender discrimination, menopause obviously affecting women, and the approach taken by lawyers like myself is to handle it on a gender basis, because women are treated differently than men, and so you would have that aspect of protection. The other aspect is age, because menopause is affecting women above the age of 40. The Age Discrimination and Employment Act, a federal statute, protects women against age discrimination, and so we use this as a tool. Both Title VII and the Older Worker Protect I'm sorry the Age Discrimination Act to protect women or at least try to prosecute these cases against their employers. There's another category having to do with disability, and that's the Americans with Disabilities Act, and that protects women in menopause, because the menopause affects the endocrine system and so the courts have held that that endocrine system is a major life activity and so that would be also protected.

Speaker 1: 5:22

All right, Hold on a second. So let's explain this in sort of more layman's terms. I thought that what I read is that under the American with Disabilities Act that menopause is not protected, that you can't make a claim that I have menopause and therefore I'm being treated wrong at work.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Right, that's accurate, but that's also going to be changing because if the American workforce is constituted by at least I don't know last I saw 50% or 57% women, and the populations of women at the workplace is ever increasing in the ages of people who are suffering from peri and also from menopause, you're going to have a shift change in the law to protect women, maybe a protected classification, but currently we use these statutes I just mentioned to facilitate protection, but nothing outright in the form of like an ADA, disability for menopause.

Speaker 1: 6:24

Right. So right now there is no menopause protection under the ADA, but there is protection for gender and age discrimination, correct?

Speaker 2: 6:35

Correct, but I'm going to say that if you're going through menopause, you're experiencing a change in your endocrine system. So I would argue, if you are an employee suffering from discrimination, that maybe disability for menopause on the endocrine system impairment would be your disability.

Speaker 1: 6:52

So the endocrine system is what regulates your hormones in your body Right, and that's protected under the ADA.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Right, because it's a major life activity.

Speaker 1: 7:03

What does that mean?

Speaker 2: 7:04

major life activity Think of major life activity as you're able to sleep, eat, eyesight, reproduction major life activities of your body, your immune system.

Speaker 1: 7:20

So can women then request work accommodations for some severe symptoms like severe hot flashes, brain fog, fatigue, anxiety? Can women request those accommodations in their workplace?

Speaker 2: 7:39

You can and you should. The question is becoming aware of them first, and then what to ask for in the form of like, if you want to turn the air conditioning up or fans in the workplace or leave no absences, all these are accommodations to allow you to work just like everyone else, but without the barrier caused by the alleged disability of menopause.

Speaker 1: 8:06

So what happens if a woman feels discriminated against or forced out of their job due to menopause and maybe the employer is not saying you're in menopause, now time for you to go, but you are strongly feeling like it's because you are in midlife menopause. It might be age, it might be just like the health issues that are surrounding you.

Speaker 2: 8:34

My first reaction is and I say this in my podcast as well is document what's happening. Create your own narrative. Put the facts on paper first, figure out what people are saying. Sometimes you'll have situations at work where people will make comments or they treat you differently because of your condition or protected status being gender, age or disability all the above. But write out the chronological narrative first. Get your story down about what happened and start to figure out the inferences, because you may just misinterpret signs and signals of the office, but maybe you don't.

Speaker 2: 9:13

My hunch is that more often than not, the workplace is very cruel. If you have if you're a self-advocate by yourself first to figure out what's happening. Once you get your storyline down and you're feeling discriminated against, you got to think and pause. If you tell your employer you're discriminated against or you think you might be, because you tell the HR you're likely going to be out the door soon and you want to create a severance package situation, you need to contact an employment lawyer as well. Package situation, you need to contact an employment lawyer as well. But think about before you do this, because it's a big it's you're going to. You're no longer going to be working there very long it's not like. So I just want to make you aware that it's a very big hurdle to get past.

Speaker 1: 9:54

First, you know, a couple of decades ago. So was pregnancy discrimination right, I mean women would get outed because they were pregnant or right and didn't seem employable, or and that's come a long way, right. So I'm going to assume or it sounds like from what you're saying that menopause rights might become more of a more notable thing in the workplace.

Speaker 2: 10:22

We hope that they will because of the awareness happening in society. But remember employers. It may be the 1950s again, because I just had a case with a hedge fund where the person was pregnant and this person was a real producer and she had her pregnancy and she was terminated after that.

Speaker 1: 10:41

Yeah, you get pregnancy discrimination cases all the time, even though there are laws in place for pregnancy rights right under the ADA. So or is it under the ADA?

Speaker 2: 10:53

Pregnancy actually is a disability under Connecticut law and some other states as well. But remember something my point I'm trying to make is when you claim discrimination, please plan to exit your employment soon. At a later point in time, Employers don't react positively to it. I'm just forewarning you.

Speaker 1: 11:11

Okay, I think ideally, most women are not wanting to leave their jobs because now they're in menopause, I mean. But you're giving some steps to take if you feel like you are being unduly discriminated against and if you want to take some legal action.

Speaker 2: 11:28

Right, let's take the word discrimination out. Let's just roll back a little bit and talk about getting menopause accommodations and speaking to HR, asking them, you know, and developing a conversation. So I just described earlier a worst-case scenario. It doesn't have to be that way. You can work with HR. They're going to want to work with you. I read this morning, before this discussion, that 75% of employers are interested in accommodating women going through menopause and perimenopause. So have a conversation by expressing what you need and seeing how, in an adult fashion, that if they can accommodate your needs, so they can be a more productive employee.

Speaker 1: 12:06

Well, that's a good point, I mean. So then I have a question how much of a responsibility can we actually put on workplaces, versus being personally responsible for our own well-being and, like our menopause health and our symptoms, and I mean, is it a workplace responsibility?

Speaker 2: 13:05

Yeah, I would argue that it is. You spend 2,000 hours a year, 40-hour work weeks or more, working for an employer, so that's employer has obligations to create an accommodating workplace, an equal workplace, and this is no different. So I would argue yes, the employer has an obligation to accommodate women. Going through this and, by the way, you're creating workplaces that are nurturing trust between employees and employers. Not having these policies well does nothing for trust. If you go over the top and try to accommodate or produce menopause-friendly workplaces, you're going a long way to increase and better your culture of your office.

Speaker 1: 13:50

Going a long way to increase and better your culture of your office Right.

Speaker 2: 14:04

And, like I said before, I mean this can cost workplaces almost $2 billion a year for women taking time off or not being accommodated in their workplaces. Yeah, employers have a lot to lose if they don't do this, and I think that's what's happening now. This is catching on very, very quickly and employers are reacting in a very positive way, which just it just takes time to see the developments of it, but clearly something's happening.

Speaker 1: 14:20

Have you ever had a case that was menopause related?

Speaker 2: 14:24

No, I actually had cases that are age and gender in that category. My suspicion is that women are not either aware of the issue or how to bring it up, or just fearful to bring it up at work, which has to change. They have to feel confident that their employer is going to respect them.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Yeah Well, I think that for a lot of women they don't really. There's this belief that we're in menopause. We have to tough it out and kind of suffer in silence.

Speaker 2: 14:56

Is that the fear and stigma issue? You know that they're fearing that if they say something they're going to be penalized in some way and maybe not give it a promotion.

Speaker 1: 15:06

Well, I think that there's just been a huge silence around menopause in general. That goes back generations, you know. And so now, then here is the. We're here in the workplace and do you bring this up with your boss, you know? Do you tell your manager like I'm having menopause symptoms? I mean, I imagine there would be a lot of fear around bringing up something like that and the reactions that it might stir up.

Speaker 2: 15:37

I think people bring things to the attention of their employers when it becomes difficult to do your tasks at work, whether it's remote or at work. It's getting in the way and that's basically classic disability type of like phenomena that something happens like that. It reaches a point where you're suffering. Don't suffer, I mean, express yourself, communicate what you need, and you might find a very positive reaction by your HR department.

Speaker 1: 16:06

So you're saying that if women are suffering, if hot flashes, any of these symptoms, are getting in the way of their work, that they should bring it up to human resources or their manager and express this and ask for accommodations?

Speaker 2: 16:26

Right, and let me give you a little lawyer's inside trick so that you understand something. I do this all the time in my podcast. I give people the legal impact of when they do this. So let's say, you tell HR and your boss you're having issues and you need accommodation for menopause. When you do this, do it in writing, but also do it verbally You're creating a paper trail and it's a protected activity. And what I'm, as the attorney, looking for what the HR department is also looking for is that they don't retaliate against you for making the request. Retaliation, discrimination is the easiest thing to prove. So document everything Emails, timestamps, of course, communications. You have follow up with an email. Hey, we talked about this conversation. I just want to follow up and make sure you get back to me and give them short timeframes to respond to you. The ADA says you have to have an interactive process. Think about adults talking about a problem, a major crisis, and working through it calmly.

Speaker 1: 17:26

All right. Well, let's talk about something. So this is all the legal jargon and you know this can feel overwhelming, I think, to some women and there's a lot of fear about you know that these conversations don't go correctly and that there could possibly be some legal action, and that can be very overwhelming, but it's good to know that that is an option, Right Right, To know that that is an option, right, right.

Speaker 1: 17:51

And so let's just for a moment imagine that you go to your employer and you say I am having a problem with this, this and this, and hot flashes, anxiety, whatever it is, as part of your menopause experience. I want to talk about what some of the policies that companies can put into place. I mean, if your HR department is receptive to doing this, putting some programs and policies into place, then that's amazing. I mean, they don't. I don't think that they legally have to do that though, right, but maybe the just some accommodations.

Speaker 1: 18:36

But I'm talking about like bigger, bigger, more like policies and like and programs, because you know again, like I said before, I don't think you know a lot of women don't have that much education on menopause yet. I think it's becoming much more open and talked about that women, I think, are just more open to having conversations about this and not keeping it a secret. But you know, I know what I can be doing on my side and I want to talk about that because I do a lot of corporate programs and I'm going to talk about that in a second. But let's talk a little more globally. And just what kind of policies can companies put in place to better support women All right.

Speaker 2: 19:24

So I believe the first thing you can look to is and everybody overlooks this, but it's called the employer's code of conduct. If you're a public company, you have an employer code of conduct. It basically says treat everybody fairly, et cetera. Maybe it says something about menopause, but highly unlikely. If you have menopause policies at work, maybe you can promote them by asking them to do a seminar possibly. You know there is. Employers are going to be receptive to doing this because they already understand that the culture shift has happened, so they're more likely than not to put on programs that discuss it. Bring a speaker in.

Speaker 2: 20:06

So employers are interested in workplace wellness and so they can have such as like maternity leave, mental health, et cetera. It's just another offshoot of that. So you would have menopause-friendly employee wellness, menopause being part of employee wellness. You can have a flexible work option for experiencing symptoms I mean, remember the FMLA the Feminine Medical Leave Act covers this and likewise companies most likely have short-term disability where you can take one day, two days just to get through what you're going through. Don't feel you can't ask for it.

Speaker 1: 20:38

And you can use that. You can use the FMLA days off. You don't have to have a reason, a specific reason. I mean, do you have to tell your employer like I'm having severe hot flashes and I can't come in today, or can you just take a day off?

Speaker 2: 20:57

You have remember. You have the basic level. You have a sick day, but if you send an HR request saying I'd like to have you know one day off for FMLA leave, short-term disability, you can do that. They do take paperwork but you can request it. Fmla is intermittent. You can have it by the hour. People don't understand this. They have to take a six-month leave of absence or something like that. It's not true Other aspects of just HR training and leadership issues. I mean, hr is constantly moving and evolving and I think that's what's causing the development of menopause wellness in the workplace, because HR departments by the way, most HR departments are female and they're attuned to this issue. So that's probably driving the menopause awareness aspect in corporations today.

Speaker 1: 21:44

Okay. So they're more like these bigger global policies, maybe right with insurance. They're more like these bigger global policies maybe right with insurance you could get. I mean, I've been hearing about companies partnering up with women's wellness companies to talk about hormones and menopause and things like that.

Speaker 1: 22:02

So these are bigger like just these insurance type of benefits right that companies can probably add on Right that there's a lot of mystery and a lot of confusion around menopause. So just to get educated on what menopause is. So menopause and nutrition webinars, you know just to like. What is it? How do you empower yourself? What do you do about it from a nutrition perspective? From your food, from your daily lifestyle and living. From your food, from your daily lifestyle and living. You know food has such a huge role in your energy, your focus, your hormonal health, I mean. And you know, during this time of menopause and beyond, because it's not just menopause and menopause symptoms, but menopause brings up a whole other host of health issues right at the same time because our dip in estrogen I know we're diverting a little bit from the legal part- but, this is important.

Speaker 2: 23:32

It's important to me too. It's educational.

Speaker 1: 23:35

Yeah, our drop in estrogen triggers our bone health issues, heart issues, brain issues. I mean energy, I mean so much, and so we want to learn, beyond hormone replacement therapy, how to have our best health so we can be the best employees at our jobs, you know, and go in as energized and as focused as possible. You know, I think there's also a need for support groups and employee resource groups, you know, for creating spaces where women can get together and talk about this so there is less secrecy and shame around being in menopause, because women getting older is not the most. There's a lot of stigma around it, just there's a lot of stigma around it.

Speaker 2: 24:28

Can I add my two cents in here? If you're going to create spaces at work, but invite men to these discussions, because I've gone to these webinars on the web about menopause and I found it incredibly fascinating and also just educational, not because I was just an employment lawyer, but because I was just curious and it was very informative. I mean, it did remove a lot of like any type of, you know, bias stigma that I could have had, and I think men should be included in this discussion. It's just not a female issue, it's a whole, you know, workforce issue.

Speaker 1: 25:04

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that you know every woman on the planet goes through menopause at some point in their lives, and I will tell you without a doubt that if you are a man, you know someone who is going through menopause or who has gone through menopause. I mean, your mother went through menopause, and your spouse and the women that you work with. So I think that it is really important for men to get just as educated as women on what's happening. This is half of the population of the world, so I think that's a great point too.

Speaker 2: 25:39

Can I just add one more point to that? I'm really about removing biases in the workplace and sorry, but men can be difficult sometimes and they or they can be make ill-informed statements about women, and there are cases that do reflect that, where they're saying they're asking you know another woman in the workplace, you know what? Are you going through menopause or having a hot flash? I mean, it does happen and it's discrimination.

Speaker 2: 26:07

It is discrimination, but you have to be have to understand it does happen. It's discrimination. It is discrimination, but you have to understand it does happen and it's something we need to educate against bias. And you educate, you remove bias and make people more understanding and more welcoming and receptive to what's going on with half the workplace. I mean half the workplace. It's incredible.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Okay, so I appreciate your insights today and any final legal takeaways that you want women to know or you feel like they need to know. Anything that you feel like you kind of left out about what companies should be doing.

Speaker 2: 26:56

For women. I want you to be your own self-advocate, but do it on the down low, on your own device. Keep track of what's happening. Create a narrative. Obviously, you're aware of employee monitoring, so don't do any of this kind of self-advocacy or preparation or learning on a work computer. Do it on your own device, because you don't want to call yourself out.

Speaker 2: 27:10

Creating self-advocacy and monitoring your own situation very, very important so you're aware when something actually is happening and if it is happening to you, there are ways to handle it. You can contact an employment lawyer like myself. I'm not trying to pitch myself, but just simply become more aware. You can listen to a podcast about employment as well. Employers are not going to tell you the answers to your situations. This is a very forward-looking type of podcast episode. Most companies are not yet there, and so you have to be very cautious and careful. I'm sorry to say that, but be prepared, be aware, be mindful of what you're doing and curate the type of response you want. You're in control of it. You don't have to be subjected to the wills of some company. You have a right to say certain things and you have implement rights. So just become more aware.

Speaker 1: 28:06

I have a final couple wellness takeaways that I want to just reiterate that I think menopause education is so important and if it comes from the workplace, that's great, Even better, you know, because it's better to get really well science backed information from trusted sources than try to like figure this stuff out on the internet or in social media with wellness influencers and things like that. So a couple just calls to action. If you are a woman struggling at work, know your rights and seek out support. If you are an HR leader or a business owner, start taking action to create menopause-inclusive workplaces. And if you want to bring menopause education to your workplace, definitely reach out to me. You can reach out to Mark. I will have these links in the show notes for webinars, programs and just general guidance on how to make your work experience as good as possible. So I think we covered a lot.

Speaker 1: 29:15

I think that we, you know, covered it all. If anyone has any questions, I'd love to keep this conversation going and you can always reach out to me. My contact info is in my show notes and have a great day.

Speaker 2: 29:32

Bye.