Hey, it's Mark here and welcome to the next edition of the Employee Survival Guide where I tell you as always, what your employer does definitely not want you to know about a lot more. Okay, welcome back. And it's mark again. And today we have a guest with us. It's Susan Antilla. And she's an award winning investigative journalist who has written about employment discrimination and invest in and investor protection issues for the New York Times, Bloomberg, the nation in other global news outlets. She's an author of the hashtag me to book about sexual harassment on Wall Street. Tales from the boom boom rim. The landmark legal battles that expose Wall Street's shocking culture of sexual harassment. The Sunday Times of London call it an explosive new book that has scandalized Manhattan's financial district. Susan, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Mark, thank you for having me. You recently wrote a story that captured my attention and still does. The story came out in the publication of insider and February 28 2023. And it was titled as the insider the inside tawdry drug fueled violent world of America's top life insurance salesman regarding Globe Life Insurance, and I wanted to talk to you a bit about your investigation, how the story arose and what you encountered as you went through the process. So maybe you can share with us how that how did the story come to you? Or will you know, there was, I think it was last March that President Biden signed a bill the ending this is a long one, the ending forced arbitration of sexual assault and sexual harassment act. And this, this was basically a new law that allows even people who have signed mandatory arbitration agreements, if they're filing a lawsuit about sexual assault or sexual harassment in the workplace, they can remain in court, even if they've signed, signed an arbitration agreement. So because I write about this stuff, on really a regular basis, at least every couple of days, I would just go on to Pacer, the, you know, to look at federal court documents. And I would put in the search term of this law. And, you know, lo and behold, in April of last year, I came across this Zelensky versus russon. In aihl. Case, Rene sinskey, is the woman who filed it. And I read the complaint. And I have to tell you, I've been writing about this stuff since the mid 1990s. And my jaw dropped. I had never heard anything like this. This was a woman who said that her boss would take her out in his car, and, you know, force her to watch him masturbate, and it gets worse from there. And I said, Whoa, you know, what's going on here? So I called her lawyer, and, and asked her to set up a time that I could speak to Rene sinskey. And it's sort of unfolded from there. You know, Zelensky story itself is harrowing. as I went along, I thought, well, let me gather names of male agents as I was doing the research. And when I do stories like this right away, I put their names into a database so that I can see what their records look like. And I started you know, these names started popping up with terroristic threats and felonious assaults and nice group of people. Yeah. And the agency founder was on a, on a podcast where he was talking about the fact that he got caught with a bunch of drugs when he was a kid, and they put them into juvenile juvenile detention. I read that. So, you know, I, I'm looking at these people saying, how do you get a bunch of people like this in a regulated industry? And so there were a lot of roads, I went down as a result of that. But I discovered along the way, along the way that insurance regulation was kind of a joke and, and went on and on from there. You and I, when you first shared the story with me, the we talked a bit about the this the fact that the folks in Simon areas, his office in Pennsylvania, were all independent contractors. And and you wrote in your article, the fact that these individuals were, you know, above the law, because they were independent contractors. And I actually had to confront that and say that, in fact, you know, there are cases that demonstrate that the independent contractors can be held liable. what's called an economic realities test, where you In essence is the employer really is controlling the duration of time and every aspect of the person's work and they really can't work for any other party. But and that's really a kind of a side point. And I'm sure it's being hashed out in the arbitration or the federal court proceeding. But the The fascinating part of the story was the level of chess degradation of TOS people's rights. You just mentioned that, you know, getting in the car for the one on ones that Renee had to get was, she just her whole work environment was just just a mystery. I think it was the actor. Here's Mr. rousson. That's how his name is pronounced. He just had his no filter. He just he just did and said what he wanted. And it was just at his pleasure, so to speak, it was just so alarming. Other things that were coming out of his mouth, and obviously, through your, your reporting of the article, it was just just every single reference possible to a woman that could be negative pejorative was used, slots and bitches and horrors and sexual comments that were made. It's just remarkable that the company never took any action to to protect the employees there. Well, Mark Hughes. I know that you know, in your work, that when you're a rainmaker, you can get away with a lot. Now, even even putting aside the fact that they were 1099 contract workers. You know, even when somebody's a full time employee, you know, I used to I wrote so much about sexual harassment in the brokerage industry. And, you know, if a guy was a rainmaker, like it was really hard to battle that person, the company would put up as much legal defense as they needed to hire as many firms as they needed to threaten to ruin the woman's reputation and to let other firms know that they shouldn't hire her. So and this guy Rawson was a rainmaker. You know, he was very successful. He wrote a lot of business. And, you know, it really was not in areas agency's interest, nor in the interest of American income life, which was supplying them with the products that they sold. You know, they loved this guy. Right. And he's making lots of money. Yeah, it I highlighted certain parts of your article, I apologize. But in reference to Mr. Areas, there was a, I guess, a convention of the globe, folks in 2020, and CEO Larry Hutchinson's was quoted as saying about areas. You've been an inspiration to me and everybody in the home office. I thought that was just Well, funny. But also just wait a minute, that's just insane. Yeah. And Mark, look, they love Simon areas. He was the AIA L has a lot of agencies, seminaries as agency is one of them. But it is the second biggest producer for American income life. And, and the biggest producer is is an agency that has I think, almost all of California and part of Canada. So, you know, by comparison, you know, of course, they would have more, but so Simon Aries is a very important contributor to the bottom line. And, you know, they have given him Globe Life, the parent company, several times they've given Simon Arius, their Legacy Award, which is the highest honor that they give, right. So, you know, and, and, you know, the question arises, so, okay, did these parent companies know what was going on? Force? They did? Yeah. I mean, how do you? I highlighted there was a, you pulled some commentary from the company was very let's see, or its global executive vice president Jennifer Hayworth said, the company al takes seriously any allegation brought to its attention concerning South sexual harassment, inappropriate conduct, or unethical business practices and makes clear that it does not tolerate such behavior agents or others are subject to contract termination, if they engage in the conduct. I found that is, you know, I'm, I'm used to hearing those statements from my end, it's a level of denial that's common. But in the face of what was happening and the complaints that remain internally, they just propagated this behavior because of the money. Right? It didn't care. And, I mean, certainly, I mean, you could guess this, but I'll just say it that when I am doing a story like this, I send very detailed questions to the defendants, you know, I want to give them every opportunity to comment. If I have something wrong, I want them to say Are you crazy that didn't happen and explain what you know, I want to hear that you know, and instead I got the you know, the statement the board replied statement that you just read. So, yeah, I mean, let's, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they knew nothing about it until I pulled it to their attention. But they didn't take the opportunity to say that any of it was wrong. So, you know, and by the way, after I wrote the story, and I spoke to many people, obviously, before the story, after the story, more people came out of the woodwork to talk to me. And, and, in one case, a woman described incidents very much like what happened to Renee, but it was with another man at Arias agencies, where she said, I mean, this is, you know, this is like, hard to hear. But basically, this woman told me that her boss would take her out in his car, and pull over and shove her take the back of her head and shove it into his crotch. And that's what Renee is insky said happened to her. In this case, the woman said, you know, that they were out on client poles, you know, they have to they spend a lot of time in their cars, these agents because they have to go visit people at their homes, but they're still in the scope of their employment are still Yes, absolutely, absolutely, they are. But that's the reason that a woman can end up in a car alone with some of these guys, because they are on business. And this, this particular guy was just, he would just pull over in the middle of a trip, and say, I'm not going to take you home unless you service me, which is what we call quid pro quo or sexual harassment, legal parlance. Similar to this, it's also reported in your story, that there's a use of a device, the practice that they I call it called forced arbitration. They make all employees sign including including Rene and got Rene into a tangle in federal court and pushed part of her case out to arbitration and part of it was remaining. But the aspect of forced arbitration here it was used as in I want to really understand this, that it's used as a cover to protect in the confidentiality of in this case, extremely seriously bad acts of management, and co workers across the scale from sex to drugs to see whatever else they were doing there. But the so forced arbitration is a device that management attorneys defense attorneys claim helps facilitate in a very cheap and expensive way, the resolution of legal disputes, which is a bunch of malarkey, because it's there's a federal statute called the forced arbitrary, I'm sorry, the American Arbitration Act. And it's been around for a long, long time. But as we now know, and recently, President Biden just passed a law to as you record it earlier, is that the the abandoned the forced arbitration and sexual harassment assault cases. So part of this case, I'm, but I actually went to the docket like you did. And I actually went into the docket in Pittsburgh, and realize that the attorney did exactly what I would normally do in his case is, I always find in arbitration provisions in his cases, and I tried to push a federal lawsuit into court and get in basically get compelled out from there. But why do I do that? Because I want I want people to know what happened, right? Exactly what Rene's attorney did, yes. That's so smart. I mean, I don't know why more attorneys don't do that. Because you can't, you can't stop somebody, even if lawyer says, Oh, I made a mistake. I mean, you can't stop somebody from filing something. And yes, I It's interesting, I've because of that, when I, when I look at arbitration results against stockbrokers, it's different in the brokerage industry. So they're the brokerage industry, self regulatory organization runs an arbitration program, and they actually do give you the results of those of those arbitrations, but they don't give you much detail and very often are often enough that it's interesting. I'll find that I get that. I get those results against stockbrokers with delimited explanation, and then I go onto the federal website pacer.gov. And lo and behold, I find out that they did try to sue and they got forced into arbitration. So yes, reporters do that for exactly the reason. You know, you're doing something very effective, because it does get it in the public record. Yeah. And it's just a required aspect of what I do. And I'm glad you look in spread the word you're in through your medium because that that's how people learn. Otherwise, they're not going to know about this. And you know, back to the, you know, I just want to I don't want to gloss over what Renee and her co workers experienced there. I mean, one of the allegations that was raised was Russ. was sending Snapchat messages to her. And one of them it was a picture of him naked. And did you talk to Renee about that? And the other one she received as well? I did. And I met Renee, I went down to Pittsburgh to meet her and to visit the areas agency and talk to other people who had worked there. And now I've totally lost my train of thought, I'm sorry, Mark, where do we start? Russian had sent Snapchat was he wasn't working. She hadn't been working there that long. And she was home one day on the weekend. And she saw that she got a Snapchat message from him. And she called it up on her phone. And it was a picture of him naked. We ran the picture with him covered up. And she kind of she just, she was sort of in shock, as she described it to me. And it's kind of interesting. What happened after that. She took a screenshot of it. And because it was, apparently I'm not on Snapchat, so I don't know. But apparently these messages don't last very long. Right? That's my kids say, Yeah. So. So she took a screenshot of it. And apparently, there is a way for the person who sends you something to know that you took screenshot and, and he called her and laced into her, why did you do that and get rid of that. And the next day when she came into work, Renee told me that he took her phone and screamed at her and you went through to make sure that that didn't exist anymore. But she had. But she she had made another copy of it somehow. I don't know how so that's why she still had it. But you know, he was the reason I tell you this story is that he was he was very aware of not leaving, you know, these footprints, you know, he he was aware of not leaving evidence, although I am saying that. And yet I know, a lot of other ways that he did leave evidence, but he knew that that one would be really bad for somebody else to see. And so he got really angry about it. Let me comment on that. Because when I've read the story, he did some investigation earlier that he had gone on a podcast, and just lamented her and just led. He just basically laid it all out there. Like some attorney would tell him to shut up. But he just refused to do it. And he was just like an idiot. I mean, yeah, it's it's really, I don't even I don't even have an analysis of that. It's kind of so weird, actually, to when you've been sued, as he has been for the things that he's been sued for. The fact that he did that, that he would I can't remember exactly what he said he he said that. We did say something to the effect in one podcast of why would she go out in my car with me eight times? Because she had told me that he had done this to her at least eight times. Right under that. And, you know, all the answer is that her job depended on him liking her, right. You know, there certainly are a lot of women in the workplace who put up with an amazing number of crazy things and really hurtful and harmful things. And they do it because they don't want to lose their jobs. And she was making $20,000 before and he's probably making a good deal of money now working for globe. So Right. Yeah, sure. Her last job. She was a delivery person for a pizza parlor. Right? She Yes, you're right. She made 20,000 a year. And then in her at her job at Arias agencies. She made 109 I think it was I can't remember exactly how much but she was making substantially more money. She was very good salesperson. Right? Did she? I'm sure I read this, but I'm sure she complained about the behavior. She was experiencing the hostile sexual harassment who's experiencing the company didn't do anything about it. Well, no, not. She talked to people about it. She talked to some people who sat near her in the agency who could see something was going on. Right. But Renee, she didn't want to lose her job. And Ruslan made it very clear, apparently, during meetings, Renee told me that he would regularly say, you know, go ahead and try to sue me. You know, you'll you'll never have the money I have, you'll never you know, it don't even bother. Right. And you'll end up regretting it. So it was trying to stoke and intimidate and stoke fear enter. And it was a little she described it as cult like at the place that you know, you had to be totally loyal to Mike, that you never questioned anything about what was going on. And if you did anything that even a little tiny slice You never criticized anything, if you did anything that was critical or questionable, you were seen as disloyal. And she said that, you know, you'd have your leads taken, you need your leads as a salesperson, right? And they would get a certain number of leads. And she said one time she complained about something. And she went back into the system and a whole bunch of leaves that were in her queue. Were all gone. Yeah, read the I, I want to kind of talk about a very serious issue that came up as well. As Zelensky said, I guess through the federal complaint that you reported on, that the company had used a date range of drug on her. Do you remember this incident? There were actually a couple? Yeah. In one case, there was I guess, I guess Bresson had taken some some of the people out, they did a lot of drinking at this place. Drinking in the afternoon. That's an understatement. And so resin took some of his reports to a local bar. And and as Rene tells the story, she basically blacked out. And like, she doesn't even know what happened. She found a way to get herself back from the bar to the office. And one of her colleagues found her past out on the bathroom floor. You know, she'd been there for hours and hours. There was another instance where, and she, she told me in one of these cases, she got a text or a phone call or something from him saying, hey, you know, wasn't that fun? Or something like that? Like one case? He said, Yeah, you know, I put some ghp into your drink, which is the date rape drug. In another instance, she was they were having one of these weekend team building things at a hotel in cranberry, Pennsylvania. And, again, they were at the bar, and she went back up to somebody's room because she somebody had borrowed her hairspray. So she went back to get it. And the next thing she knows she's waking up on a bed with three people having sex next to her, couldn't feel her legs didn't know what was going on. So yeah, and she said that these drugs were openly used. So, I mean, I'm saying this, too. It's so funny. You know, it's, I wrote this story. And even as I'm saying this to you, I'm saying this is just so incredible. It is incredible. It that's why I wanted to make sure that we didn't pass by discussing the date, right drug aspect of this, and then she still continued to work. While this is taking place. I mean, that's a level of fear and intended intimidation. I have never seen any case. And it just was shocking. I'll note that when I looked at the docket in the way that case by fruit bifurcated out, because of arbitration, the sexual assault claims remained in federal court, and that's what's pending. Those are serious. I mean, forget the issues of employment discrimination. It's a sexual assault aspect and federal court. I mean, these guys. I mean, it's a civil prosecution, it's alarming that the criminal prosecution hasn't taken place. Maybe they're waiting, I don't know. But it's just, it's just jaw dropping, I'm sorry. I'd like to also try to end the podcast with you and I are just discussing, you know, you have your experience reporting on on Wall Street, and writing a book about things you've seen. And I have my experience of this litigating cases for a long time. Maybe we can just, you know, share. Just, you know, it doesn't have to be I mean, Renee didn't have to go through what she went through, there are laws and ways to protect individuals, you know, the easiest thing of self help is to specially quit. But that's not always a choice for people. But what are your thoughts of after just doing the story? And, you know, right now, in June of 2023, in the state of affairs for employees, how do you feel about, you know, how people should react to the story? advocate for themselves? what's your what's your thoughts? Well, you know, you had said to me, when we talked a few weeks ago, people have to know their rights, and that's absolutely they do need to understand their rights. And I do think more people do in the case of this particular company, they recruit kids out of high school, they don't know anything, you know, and I don't mean that as a derogatory statement. They're just young, they've never worked before. Or they've worked in a pizza parlor, you know, so they just don't know and they're being indoctrinated. So they think that this is a normal workplace, believe it or not use the word cult before to Yes, I thought it was very cult like and when I interviewed people, it's one of the four first things they say I don't prompt them. It was very cold, like, and so I mean, knowing your rights is a big deal. I'm amazed that a huge a huge problem here is people don't read documents. And, you know, it's I just beg people, when you are getting a job, read this stuff that they want you to sign. And because they almost we all know almost all companies have mandatory arbitration. But if you're going to be able to do something about the clauses in your contract, the only shot you've got is when they're hiring you, when you're still having a love affair when they're dying to get you, right. If you can't negotiate that stuff, at that moment, forget it, because you're never gonna get that chance again. Now, I'm not saying that companies will necessarily cave in. But I think that if you get a really abrupt note, everything that tells you about the company to write, so I just, you know, I just can't believe that people don't read that stuff. And I really like, you've got to read that stuff. Renee made that mistake twice, by the way, because she had a mandatory arbitration agreement when she got there. But then interestingly, when she finally in 2021, I think it was went and complained to the agency owner about this guy. He said, and she showed him the Snapchat messages, you know, he showed him stuff. He said, Okay, so I'll take you out from under him, and you can report to me. And she said, okay, and he said, But meanwhile, here, you've got to sign a new employment agreement. And lo and behold, the new employment agreement, of course, has a mandatory arbitration clause. That's what the company used to say that she couldn't, she couldn't use. She couldn't use the new law, because it was a post employment clause. I remember reading that too. So yeah, so it wasn't a legal argument, I believe in the court. Yeah. And other two other things that I would say, employees need to understand that human resources is not on their side, Human Resources works for management, they don't work for you. They're protecting management. And if you're at the point where something really bad is happening, and you're engaged with HR, you know, I mean, Mark, God bless you, I hope you make all the money in the world. But I tell people, you've got to have a lawyer, you just, you cannot stand up against these people. They have all the resources, if you go in there, basically legally naked, I think that you're not going to have a good thing happen. The other little thing I'd like to just mention is when you're at any, in any workplace, even even without these problems, when when a supervisor says, Okay, we're going to do XYZ with regard to your career, like, send an affirming email to that person saying, you know, Joe is great to talk to you, I'm so excited that you're going to offer me X, Y, and Z. And, you know, please let me know if there's anything else I should know about the job, because then you've, you know, if Joe doesn't get back to you and say, I didn't say that to you, then you've kind of affirmed that that conversation has gone on, I think those are important things for people to know at work. So you're saying the lawyers trick of documenting everything via email, which I do regularly? Do I even do it to other lawyers as well, it's, it works really effectively, especially lawyers who behave in an uncivil manner. I had one recently apologized to me because I called them out on it. Let me remark about the the aspect of people not reading documents, oftentimes people, employees don't have a familiarity with these documents. And also economic circumstances dictate that they have to assign whatever and I label these contracts is what's called a contract of adhesion or a ticket or leave it deal. And companies literally tell people take it or leave it doesn't make it right doesn't make it legal. And there are ways to challenge it. Yes, you should negotiate it, every contract you get. And you really have to understand your leverage. But we're not there yet in terms of our development of the relationship between employees employers yet, and I mean, because I'm optimistic employers still hold a heavy hand against employees and dictate terms all the time non computer like we are starting to see changes in that in the form of the Federal Trade Commission proposing a rule against non competes for everybody. That rule has not come into effect yet. We have this slice of the arbitration policy being limited in cases of sexual harassment, as you described. So we really are at a really remarkable stage in American history of working in that I want people understand that it's not something's really afoot here, something's happening. And I want people to understand. And I do talk about it extensively in the podcasts or the blog articles I'm writing, because I'm seeing it. And, and I don't care what I have this weird philosophy, I don't care what I do in courts. I care what I do publicly, because it's I'm gonna get the message out further through this messaging medium, or otherwise, court cases are slow. And, you know, people don't have to understand Federal Court 1/3 of their dockets employment cases, and judges don't like employment cases. One year, I went to a court judges luncheon, and the court chief clerk said only five cases have gone to trial that year and 213 loss of like that, hundreds of cases. So there are different ways to, to, to deal with the employer. And I, I've gotten really creative in this. And I want to say that people, you don't i Yes, I appreciate, you know, having people call an employment lawyer to help them. That's true. And use them as a resource to what, whatever fits your goal. But I've actually encountered a recent circumstance where a client, former client of mine, a friend of mine, he had he'd used me in the past and we got a settlement. And then he, he went and he took the affidavit we had drafted and he redrafted for the next employment he had. And he was able to broker his own severance of 10x of what they offered him using the affidavit that I used. If you had gone into Minsky's case, at the EEOC level, there's probably a NOC affidavit at the court case level, it's the judge or the lawyer writing the the fact pattern. But I really can express that people should draft an affidavit with facts, not conclusions, but say exactly what happened. Like if you had to write read Rene story, you would read all the quotes, all the sound bites reported in your article, in its chronological order, these things are powerful devices, I have used them, no joke, and not misrepresenting things to deal with Fortune 100 500, companies, billionaires, they all have the same impact when you use them if your facts are there. And it's yes, the truth will set you free to a severance of situation. If you're had the guts to do it and use an attorney to what some extent that suits your goals, but by no means ever litigate, because I don't want people engaging in litigation, if there's a different result. That is similar results, but not using litigation. So I really try to get that out there. I know it's fear based in terms of employer, though, you know, ogre, and they have more money than I do. But in reality, I don't know if you have an opinion about this. I see the employers are actually fearful of employees. I mean, the whole dei fiasco is just exactly a representation of that. They don't know what to do. And I just shoot in the sky and hope it works. But now they're calling it all back. I've had several cases of DUI executives who themselves are targeted, because now the companies are they're done with the movement. They're done with all this, and it's just a marketing scheme. So we're really, you know, when I see the train parking lot, not full, I know, it's happening in New York City, that people are not going back. And it's just only one slice of America. But the current poll of I think Gallup or somebody keeps track of it. I mean, we're still not going back to work, people are standing their ground and saying, I don't like this. And I always think of the old commercial of Mr. Jones and the sexual harassment commercial when you were when I was younger, she some executive would say to Mrs. Jones, you know, why don't you do this for me, and that for me, like the, like the fellow, Mr. Ross? And she would say, No, Mr. Jones, that's sexual harassment. I mean, we are really at the advent of something huge, and people need to understand that they can say something and make change. So what are your feelings about that? You think you're there yet? Well, I think that you're right, that a lot of positive things are happening, you know, the me to the whole me to movement, and, you know, they're just as more awareness of what's going on, and you don't have to put up with certain things. I totally think you're right. We also are living at a time though, where employers still can't get old people that they want to hire, right? Employees still are holding the cards. And I think that ultimately, a lot of these things end up being economic, you know, right now, for the first time, like, I can't remember how long, you know, employees are holding the cards. But you know, that's not going to be forever. Nothing's forever, right. And so, to the extent that this is happening now, I think it's great to take take it and run with it and to get as many improvements and employee rights and improvements in employee knowledge as we can get, but I would say that I wouldn't like enjoy it while we've got Audit. But if the table's turned economically, I'm not sure how much of that will remain. I, you know, I, part of me agrees with you and part of me wants to be a pessimist or I'm sitting in case an awesome optimist about, I think what's really happening is that the employees are going to get a leg up on the process, and employers are not going to be able to dictate in their so called one, University of Michigan Professor coined it as a private government, I found that just it's accurate because there are no rules to govern these employers or employees, there are statutes, of course, but nothing internally and they do whatever they want to, I think we're part of the intuition. My intuition says that we're really shifting to a point of that. People are are they put it this way, employers are more respectful to employees, because you know what they need to create that trust level with them. Because right now, there's such a level of distrust. That's what quiet quitting in loud quitting means. There's such when we read the stories about employee engagement, it's so low, it's just ridiculous. Well, now I think the number crunchers in the NBA people are thinking, well, we need to really entice them we can't do with bonuses and money because they don't care. Especially the younger population doesn't care they care about, you know, is it a purposeful job and is a meaningful life, and we're gonna see change. It's like, it's beautiful to watch. Yes, you're definitely right about that. I mean, I can't think of any time ever, when anybody cared whether you whether I was like, comfortable and happy at my job, it's just work. We're gonna pay you. You know, that was it? Right? I agree. So that's what leads me I mean, I read extensively every day, I'm sure you do as well, what you do, it's I want to stay on top. And I want to see, but I am optimistic that things are changing. And it really kind of motivates me to keep doing what you know, we're doing today on the podcast episode. And writing about just, you can't help if you're kind of a I love history, political science. And so I just being in the moment of something, I mean, much as 911 We were all in that moment, we're in the moment of the pandemic, but we're in the moment of something and people need to realize what's happening. So that's what, you know, when I saw your story, and I just, it just moved me in terms of just how egregious it was. And I just wanted to I wanted to put it out there in a way that here is the worst case scenario you could ever face. And that's what Renee went through. And God bless her. I hope she wins a lot of money for them of herself. I'm sorry, in her family, but just a remarkable story. So I want to appreciate you coming on the show with and talking about your story. And hopefully we have more of these episodes with you. It's been a pleasure as always to talk to you. Oh, my pleasure, too. It was great. It was great. Thanks, Mark. All right. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. If you'd like the employees who have a God, I'd really encourage you to leave a review. We try really hard to produce information to you that's informative, that's timely that you can actually use and solve problems on your own and at your employment. So if you like to leave a review anywhere you listen to our podcasts, please do so. And leave five stars because anything less than five is really not as good, right? I'll keep it up. I'll keep the standards up. I'll keep the information flowing out you. If you'd like to send me an email and ask me a question. I'll actually review it and post it on there. You can send it to mcarey at capclaw.com That's capclaw.com